Dr. Yoshie Otake
Team Director (D.Sc.)
Neutron Beam Technology Team,
RIKEN Center for Advanced Photonics

Career summary

1984	B.S., Department of Physics, Faculty of Science and Engineering, Waseda University
1989	Ph.D., Majored in Theoretical Nuclear and Particle Physics, Department of Pure and Applied Physics, School of Science and Engineering, Waseda University
1989	Research Assistant, Department of Electronics and Information Engineering, National Institute of Technology, Ibaraki College
1990	Lecturer, Department of Electronics and Information Engineering, National Institute of Technology, Ibaraki College
1993	Researcher, Department of Physics Particle and Nuclei Group, Division of Physics, Kyoto University
March – August 1995	Visiting Research Scientist, Institute Laue-Lagevine, Grenoble, France
1996	Contract Researcher, SPring8 Joint Team, RIKEN
1997	Research Scientist, Harima Institute X-ray Interference Laboratory, RIKEN
1998	Senior Scientist, Harima Institute X-ray Interference Laboratory, RIKEN
2003	Senior Research Scientist, Radiation Laboratory, RIKEN
2011	Deputy of Team Leader, Advanced Manufacturing Metrology Team, RIKEN Innovation Center
2013	Team Leader, Neutron Beam Technology Team, RIKEN Center for Advanced Photonics
2020 – present	President, Technology Research Association for Neutron Next Generation System (T-RANS)
2023 – present	President, The Japanese Society for Neutron Science
2023 – present	Chief Technical Advisor, Rans View Corporation (RIKEN Venture Company)
2025 – present	Team Director, Neutron Beam Technology Team, RIKEN Center for Advanced Photonics

Background to the project

Adachi: The Elsevier Foundation has provided support for this project, thanks to arrangements facilitated by Dr. Yuko Harayama, former Executive Director of RIKEN. Today, rather than focus on scientific topics per se, I would like to discuss leadership and lab management as well as other topics that may be helpful to first-time PIs and young researchers who are just starting out in their careers. I had difficulty finding your CV but I did read the article about you and your work in AERA, which was extremely informative.

Otake: Oh, that article focused somewhat on my personal life, and afterwards I wondered whether I’d be able to show my face again in public!

Adachi: Well, that article included your CV, which I referred to in preparing for today’s interview, and I would like to ask some questions based on the timeline of your CV. First of all, thank you for being here today.

Otake: And thank you for having me.

Career vision after obtaining a doctorate

Adachi: I understand that you received your Ph.D. from Waseda University in 1989. At the time, how did you see your future and your career, both as a member of society and as a researcher?

Otake: When I received my degree, more than anything, I felt that I simply wanted to continue working as a researcher. I wanted to find a position where I could continue to do research work. Although my degree was in theoretical nuclear and particle physics, I didn’t feel tied to any particular field at all. Rather, I just wanted to devote my life to research related to physics.

Adachi: Following your ambition to do work related to physics, you then took up a position at the National Institute of Technology (KOSEN), Ibaraki College in 1989, I understand.

Otake: That’s right. Ibaraki College had just created a new department — the Department of Electronic and Information Engineering. The senior faculty members of the department believed that particle quantum theory would be essential for information science in the future and were actively looking for a specialist in particle quantum theory. One of my father’s acquaintances, who happened to be a professor there, contacted me, and that is how I came to teach there.

Adachi: Had you been searching quite hard for a position at around the time you received your Ph.D.?

Otake: Yes, I had. Nowadays there are positions for postdoctoral researchers in Japan, but at the time I got my degree, there were almost no such positions within the country. People either went overseas to become postdocs or chose occupations that had nothing to do with research. Regardless of whether I got my degree, after spending three years in a doctoral course, I had my mind set on finding a position that would allow me to continue to do research after completion of my degree, and I searched high and low.

Setting up an independent lab at the National Institute of Technology (KOSEN), Ibaraki College

Adachi: So, you were successful in obtaining a position, but what kind of work did you do?

Otake: I was extremely fortunate. My workplace was located in Katsuta, Ibaraki Prefecture, one station north of Mito. A little further from Katsuta is Tokai Village, where there is a nuclear reactor as well as the Japan Proton Accelerator Research Complex (J-PARC). It was located just next to the largest facility in Japan for neutron experiments. I had already been conducting theoretical research on neutrons during my time in graduate school and while working on my doctorate. I was collaborating with experimental research groups overseas, particularly in Europe. Getting a position at the technical college was a great advantage for me, as it gave me the opportunity to join a research group with people conducting neutron experiments in Japan. In my roles as Team Leader and Project Leader, I am currently involved in accelerator-based development projects and the development of various neutron instruments. My initial break came when the Japan Atomic Energy Agency, or JAEA (before it was integrated and was still known as the Japan Atomic Energy Research Institute, JAERI) was just about to start up a new reactor called the JRR-3M (Japan Research Reactor No.3 Modified). I had the opportunity to participate in building the experimental equipment from the ground up, even though I was a complete novice in experimental work in that field. It was excellent timing, and I felt very fortunate.

Adachi: Until you received your doctorate, your work was in theoretical physics but were you able to make a smooth transition to experimental physics?

Otake: I actually wanted to validate the theoretical research I was working on, and had been discussing with the experimental group the kinds of experiments I should do to verify my theoretical work. The group I was in at the time consisted of people from the Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute and Kyoto University Faculty of Science, so everyone was in Kyoto and I was the only one in Ibaraki Prefecture. Therefore, I was the only one on-site who didn't have any knowledge of experiments. So, when we were constructing the equipment, I had no choice but to learn how to perform experiments from professors of other universities and research institutes nearby. Had I insisted on working on theory alone, we wouldn’t have made any progress, so in that sense I was very fortunate.

Adachi: In your position at the technical college, what kind of relationship did you have with those considered to be your superiors?

Otake: I had four superiors including the professor who was the head of the department. I joined the department as an assistant professor and was promoted to lecturer right away in my first year. In addition to giving lectures, I supervised experiments. The policy of the professor who created the new department was to minimize the duties of young researchers as much as possible. His belief was that older staff who become professors are incapable of making new discoveries no matter how hard they try, and that young staff should be given at least one full day or one and a half days free time every week to allow them to go out of the college and do research with other professors outside the college. The department's policy was to give free time not only to me, but also to other assistant professors and lecturers, so it was very easy to work in that environment.

Adachi: So, were the various experiments you were to undertake at Tokai Village done at your own free will and discretion?

Otake: Yes, that’s right. But, unlike my current work at RIKEN, doing research was not a part of my work duties, so in terms of the hours when I conducted my experiments, it was after I finished my regular work. Of course, I could do my research one day a week starting in the morning, but on the other four or five days, I would have to look after my students and give lectures. I also had students who were doing graduation research. Therefore, by the time I’d finished working with these students, it was usually around 10 at night. It was a technical college, and the young men there had an endless amount of energy. For some reason, they tended to be more active at night. They would come to talk to me and ask questions, so I was usually at the college until 10 or 11 at night. I would then drive to the JAERI, conduct experiments, assemble equipment, go home and go to bed at around 2 or 3 a.m., and deliver a lecture at 8:30 or 9 the next morning. That was my life at that time. Yes. But I really enjoyed what I was doing.

Adachi: Was it from around that time that you had your own lab?

Otake: Yes, it was. At the technical college at that time, we had professors, associate professors, lecturers and assistant professors. Each lab was managed by a faculty member, and there were always a number of students whose graduation research we had to supervise. As it was a technical college, we supervised the fifth-year students, but the arrangements were such that if fourth year or third-year students also wanted to study alongside the fifth-year students in the lab, they could do so. In my first year, when the department was only in its fourth year, there were no students in the final year. I had my own lab for graduation research from my second year at the college, and my job was to supervise students in addition to my regular lecturing.

Adachi: So, was it like being a PI at that time?

Otake: Yes, it was. Of course, the professors and department head were responsible for running the department and creating the overall curriculum as well as supervising students. In my own lab, I had about four or five students and I would assign them each a different research topic to work on individually. So, in a sense I was working in the capacity of a PI. At the time, I also received some very small Grants-in-Aid for Scientific Research as well as grants for early-career scientists, and I used these to conduct research with my students. It was a very valuable experience for me.

Onsite research at Kyoto University

Adachi: In 1993, I understand you then moved to Kyoto University.

Otake: That is correct. At that time, technical college faculty members were under the Ministry of Education, Science, Sports and Culture and, as such, had the option to take research leave somewhere in Japan or somewhere overseas. Under such programs, you were allowed to spend a year doing research in Japan or, if you wished, in another country. At that time, I wanted to go to a research institute in France that had a nuclear reactor lab. Due to a problem at that time, however, the reactor had to be shut down for a year, so it was producing no beams. It was around that time that I was moving more and more towards experimental work, so I went to Kyoto University as a researcher at the lab of a professor who was a member of a group I had been collaborating with. As a research fellow under the Ministry of Education’s domestic research leave program, I received a research grant from the Ministry of Education and I went to Kyoto where I spent a year. It was an incredibly meaningful experience for me. The graduate students I worked with at that time, who were a few years younger than myself, are now all professors who have become prominent in their fields including the field of nuclear physics. I still learn a lot from them, even now.

Adachi: During your leave, you had no teaching duties but focused solely on your research?

Otake: Yes, that’s right. The technical college has a five-year program, and students begin to take subjects in their specialized fields from their third year. There is one class per field with around just under 40 students in a class, and I had been the homeroom teacher for the third-year students the year before I went to Kyoto. When the students moved up to their fourth year, the head of the department, who had hired me, took over as the homeroom teacher and wished me well before I left for Kyoto. When I came back from Kyoto, I felt the students had matured considerably in the space of a year. They had become more articulate and more mature in their thinking. Some students were looking for jobs and more than half were transferring to universities, so I returned to my work (at the technical college) the following year to supervise their studies and support them in their next step.

Research in France

Adachi: In 1995, you then went to France for six months.

Otake: Yes, that’s correct. The reactor that had been shut down, which I mentioned earlier, resumed operation, and the institute notified me, saying, "You were planning to come, weren't you?" I told them, "Yes, it was my intention, but I no longer have status as a Ministry of Education instructor, so the overseas research program is no longer available to me." When I told them my situation, they gave me dedicated access to their experimental equipment, so I went to France for six months. After the final fifth-year students graduated in March, I was able to leave for France where I conducted experiments and research for a half year.

Adachi: What kind of team did you have in France and how many members were there?

Otake: There was the division head from the institute, and I was in charge of the equipment. There was also one student from the Netherlands. In addition, there was a technician and an engineer, so I was part of a team consisting of about five people for six months. A graduate student from Kyoto University - the one I mentioned earlier - also said he wanted to work together with us, so I arranged for the French side to invite him. In that way, he would be allowed to come for three months with financial support. At its largest, our team had about six members working together on experimental research.

Adachi: Going back a little to your earlier work, was the number of people involved in the Tokai Village experiment about the same?

Otake: Yes. In the Tokai Village project, there were two systems at work, Kyoto University’s system being a little larger, and they had developed two or three types of instruments. The other system, which I was personally involved in, was operated by a professor of the Institute for Solid State Physics of the University of Tokyo. It was on a smaller scale, involving three or four people. I participated in the two projects, which, of course, were led by professors of the respective universities, who were the project leaders. While learning from them, I integrated my own research themes, and worked with everyone to move the projects forward.

Move to RIKEN with a change in specialization and status

Adachi: Did you then come to RIKEN shortly after returning from France?

Otake: Yes. That’s right. I returned from France in 1995 and came to RIKEN six months later. Every year at the technical college I received students who conducted their graduation research in my lab. During the six months I was in France as well, I had two students doing their graduation research. Before I left, I gave them six months’ research to finish by March. Upon my return, I worked with them on their graduation research until they graduated. During that time, the research I had been working on in France was also coming together to a certain extent. As I was looking for my next position, it happened to be the very time RIKEN was building SPring-8 (Super Photon Ring – 8 GeV) in Harima. The professor from the University of Tokyo's Institute for Solid State Physics that I mentioned earlier was also involved in synchrotron radiation research, and the professor that I worked with at Kyoto University also had ties with SPring-8, so I joined RIKEN in Harima.

Adachi: So, your field of physics changed a little at that point.

Otake: Yes, it did. I had a hard time deciding about going to Harima. Until then, I had only ever worked with neutrons, so I really had no idea what working with synchrotron radiation would be like. However, one of the professors in charge of an instrument at the JRR-3 had been conducting experiments with both synchrotron radiation and neutrons, so of course I knew about their complementarity. Both synchrotron radiation and neutron beams can be used in the research and analysis of the same samples. In that sense, even though the types of particles and quantum beams are different, they share many similarities in terms of beam utilization. I had also wanted to do research at a research institute, and I felt that having the chance to work at RIKEN was a rare opportunity, so I transferred there. I was 35 years old at the time, and I felt that the period of my life until about 35 or 45 would be a time when I could take on new challenges and create something novel and truly creative in the field of scientific research with the people around me. I also felt that once I reached a certain age, even if I could build on past experience, it would be difficult for me to come up with completely new concepts in science, so I wanted to devote myself to research as much as possible while I was still young. At the same time, teaching at the technical college made me realize how important education is, and being involved in nurturing the next generation was very meaningful for me as a person. Therefore, I also thought that when I reached 45 or 50 years of age or a little older, I would like to turn my attention from cutting-edge research like the kind I hoped to do at RIKEN to something that was more applied, something that would benefit people, that had a practical use, or something that involved human resource development.

Adachi: Was your position at the technical college also a tenured position?

Otake: Yes, it was.

Adachi: So, you left the college where you had your own lab to go to RIKEN as a researcher in a permanent position?

Otake: Initially, I was a Contract Researcher there. Before that, I had gone to Europe and done various other things, so quite a few of my fellow researchers said, "Who gives up a permanent position at a national institution to become a postdoc?” Although people did say that to me, I told them that I now wanted to focus on my research no matter what. It was something I felt very strongly about. How can I put it... I guess I just wanted to spend as much time as possible on research activities.

Adachi: After that were you able to secure a permanent position without difficulty?

Otake: I joined the lab of Dr. Tetsuya Ishikawa, who is now the Center Director at Harima, and I truly owe everything to him. I had switched from neutron to synchrotron radiation research and I felt that I wasn’t being of much use. I was hired as a tenured researcher at the time when RIKEN Harima was just starting up.

Adachi: How many years did you spend at Harima?

Otake: I joined RIKEN in 1996 as a Contract Researcher and came to Wako in 2002 or 2003. Unfortunately, I developed health problems, and it became difficult for me to work at Harima. When I was at Kyoto University, Dr. Hideto En’yo, who ran the RIKEN Radiation Laboratory as the Chief Scientist, was just about to be promoted from assistant professor to associate professor, and I worked with him. At that time, I approached him and said, "Dr. En’yo, my health is pretty poor at the moment, and though I'm not of much use, could you hire me at Wako?” And his response was, "If you're working with neutrons, you can come to my lab," so after some discussion between Dr. Ishikawa and Dr. En’yo, it was agreed that I would move to Wako.

Adachi: So, at Wako your field of physics changed once again?

Otake: Yes, it did. But this time, it was more like I had come back to neutrons.

Adachi: Was the number of researchers you were working with at Wako different from the number at Harima?

Otake: At Harima, we were getting ready to start up an enormous large-scale facility called SPring-8. After that, user operations of the facility began. The Japan Synchrotron Radiation Research Institute (JASRI) also started up. I was working in an environment that included a large number of researchers, like scientists from the University of Hyogo, the former Himeji Institute of Technology, and various other places, who were involved in different capacities. I was in Dr. Ishikawa’s X-ray Interference Lab, but rather than operating as individual labs, we were all working together as part of the larger SPring-8 project, and asking, “How should we move forward as a whole?” As one of the team members, I was fortunate to be involved in many aspects of the work. After coming to Wako, I joined the Radiation Laboratory, which I think had a relatively large number of members compared to other labs. I was able to spend time there and gradually go back to working with neutrons. I also got to work at the JAERI in Tokai Village. The scale of the experiments and the work I was doing were completely different, of course, but in a sense, I felt as if I had gone from using synchrotron radiation as a probe back to using neutrons as a probe. I had no involvement in the experiments with the Brookhaven National laboratory (BNL) that the Radiation Laboratory was conducting as one of its main projects. However, I had been interested in spin (physics research) ever since I had taken up the study of atomic nuclei and elementary particles, so although I was not able to get directly involved with the experiments as part of my own research, I felt grateful to be part of the Radiation Laboratory because it allowed me to participate in various discussions.

Moving on to the field of innovative manufacturing

Adachi: What led you to become Deputy Team Leader of the Team for the Advanced Manufacturing Metrology Laboratory in the Research Cluster for Innovation (RCI)?

Otake: Well, it all started with a program at RIKEN called the Information Technology Integration Research Program for Production, which was headed by Dr. Akitake Makinouchi and ran from 2001 to 2011. Around 2005, the project became the Integrated VCAD System Research Program, and the focus of the project expanded from software such as CAD, CAM, and CAE in the field of production to include destructive testing of physical objects and later even to non-destructive testing. The objective was to reflect the differences between design data and actual physical objects, and the project covered everything from steel materials to biological specimens. It was a fairly large project, I believe, and when we were working on various non-destructive measurements, the subject came up as to whether anyone could measure neutrons, perhaps using compact neutron systems at manufacturing sites. There were a few of us working on neutrons at Wako at the time, and I was one of them. As members involved in the project, we had the idea of creating a new field of manufacturing as well as infrastructure, and we launched a new team with the intention of creating something novel. So, when the main VCAD project ended in 2011, a number of successor projects were launched. One of these projects was to explore the possibility of building neutron sources, and we launched a team with Dr. Yutaka Yamagata as Team Leader while I joined him as Deputy Team Leader to start up the project together. At present, Dr. Yamagata is the team leader of the Advanced Photonics Technology Development Group at RAP (then RIKEN Center for Advanced Photonics).

Adachi: How many researchers and engineers were you working with in your role supporting the team leader?

Otake: I believe there were four of us in the lab at the time. In addition to the 30-million-yen annual budget allocated through RIKEN RCI, we also received external funding. However, we wanted to build a compact neutron source, and we needed close to 200 million yen for that. We wanted to somehow get hold of and start using the RANS (RIKEN Accelerator-driven compact Neutron Systems), which you took a photo of earlier. So, rather than assisting the team leader, it was more like all of us working together and running about doing whatever we could to raise money. We even went to the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology to explain that these new compact accelerator-based neutron sources would become increasingly important in the future, and that’s how we started our activities. It was just after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan, so of course the Fukushima nuclear accident had an impact. It was a time when there was a lot of uncertainty about nuclear reactors. Accelerator-based quantum beams had entered a new phase. At that time, we had four core members, but we had the main VCAD project, and we had other laboratories and people who were involved in various capacities. When we had meetings for this project, the turnout was usually around 10 to 15 people.

Adachi: I imagine creating something new would have entailed holding many discussions but did you have a particular strategy for gathering and consolidating the opinions of 10 or so people?

Otake: Around the time we were launching the laboratory and team for the Compact Neutron System RANS Project for Manufacturing, toward the end of VCAD project, a committee was set up as a study group, and in a period of three to four months the committee put together a report which included a survey to determine what needs there were for neutrons and compact neutron sources as well as a rough outline of the needs and the neutron beams required to meet those needs, and the specifications and scale of the equipment. Therefore, the direction we had to aim for was very clear. It was just a matter of how intently we could focus on moving forward in that direction. Focusing intently and moving forward is something I’m very good at, but more to the point, we had no time to dawdle, so we just kept running forward for all we were worth, and everyone gave their cooperation.

Setting up a lab again as a PI

Adachi: In 2013 you became a team leader at the RIKEN Center for Advanced Photonics, so did you then officially become independent as a PI here?

Otake: Yes. That is correct.

Adachi: At that time, what kind of team did you envision?

Otake: It was just a little over 10 years ago. The main objectives of the project were to demonstrate what compact neutron sources could do worldwide and how useful they could be to society by developing equipment, conducting advanced development research, and showing specific examples of the application of compact neutron systems. In doing so, our intention was to demonstrate that neutrons could be used at a more advanced level than previously thought possible. To achieve this, we needed to employ around 10 researchers to work in the lab. But since I wasn’t a chief scientist who could employ tenured researchers), I would have to hire a large number of researchers on fixed-term contracts. Since they would be doing something that was a world first, I wanted each researcher to be able to build on their career and achievements in their own field, in a field that would lead to their further development in the future. From the perspective of life experience, this is not something that a team leader normally provides for, but rather something that researchers should essentially want to achieve on their own but, in this case, I wanted to create an environment where each researcher could build on their core competencies as a scientist. Of course, I was also to provide assistance. It is impossible for individual researchers to create equipment, conduct experiments, and write papers alone, so we had three, five, or seven researchers doing overlapping work on a single theme. Once several projects were launched, individuals would sometimes take the lead role, and sometimes a supporting role. Even when individuals take on a supporting role, they can still fully demonstrate their abilities. In that way, I wanted each person to be able to take on new challenges playing a lead role. Even when acting in a lead role requires an individual to provide behind-the-scenes support, that individual is still the lead person. A person who can’t think along those lines will have difficulty engaging in research and development that involves equipment. Even in the world of science, this is not the same as creating a spectacular new material or making a new discovery. I wanted each and every person to have their moment as a lead person. Even if their role was not flashy, I wanted to create a lab where each person was given a research theme that allowed their individuality to shine, or where they could find a theme and create something together with others. My idea was to create such a collective-like lab.

Adachi: I imagine, for example, that it’s like a paper that could not have been written without the contribution of a particular person, even though that person is not the first author.

Otake: That’s right. Yes. Situations like that do occur. When it comes to ordinary science papers, there’s no limit on the number of authors. But when we were working on infrastructure, I learned for the first time, for example, that you can give a presentation at the Physical Society of Japan without having to submit a paper, but when you plan to do a conference presentation in fields like civil engineering or concrete, you have to have a paper published in a journal beforehand as well. Not only that, journals in those fields generally limit the number of authors of a paper to four or five. So, when you're involved in a project with more than 10 people working on equipment, for example, a number of the members won’t even be listed as authors. In the operation of a lab, deciding how to manage such situations is very difficult. It's still a problem that I haven't solved. Of course, even if people don’t become authors, there are a ton of things that can't be done without their contributions. That is why I want such researchers to develop their own competencies to the point where they can properly publish papers in their fields and be listed as authors. Being able to hire technical staff and people with highly developed skills who are also competent in both research and technology for the long term would be ideal. But, as I mentioned earlier, technical staff are appointed on a fixed-term basis for a period of five or seven years, for example, and trying to involve them in our particular kind of work is difficult. It’s not easy to match people with the type of work required. Consequently, researchers are required to do more work, and even researchers who excel in technical areas risk finishing a project without being credited as authors despite their significant contribution. So, in that sense, doing basic development aimed at practical application is incredibly difficult. We haven’t solved all the problems in our lab yet but creating an environment within the lab where every individual can fully demonstrate their abilities is something we are always working on (as a challenge).

Adachi: Does that mean that people who have done important work but cannot be listed as authors on papers can still find other academic societies or forums where they can present their contributions?

Otake: Yes. But the PI doesn’t just say, "Here is a forum, so please use this opportunity for your presentation," as if handing food to a child. Neutron research is basically conducted at large-scale facilities, and the people working at places like J-PARC, JRR-3, or other nuclear reactors are also researchers. There are also plenty of researchers who are responsible for equipment, who are called instrumental scientists. It's the users who bring good scientific ideas and the instrumental scientists who operate the equipment at those facilities, and in that vein there are conference presentations and international conferences that are relatively technical in nature, and I try to inform lab members as much as possible that such opportunities are available.

Adachi: But I imagine you leave the decision up to their own autonomy, don't you?

Otake: I leave it up to them as much as possible. When nothing seems to be happening, I'll talk to them privately when the application deadline to participate in a conference is in a week. I think that everyone should apply without hesitation, but it's up to each person.

Adachi: What made you decide to go independent as a team leader?

Otake: I was Deputy Team Leader of the Team for the Advanced Manufacturing Metrology Laboratory and Dr. Yutaka Yamagata, with whom I had been working at the time, originally specialized in manufacturing. When Dr. Katsumi Midorikawa set up the RIKEN Center for Advanced Photonics, Dr. Satoshi Wada was charged with bringing everything together. At the time advanced photonics expanded from basic scientific research to a field or area of real-world application, I had already been working on neutrons for quite some time as a specialist in compact neutron sources, and was appointed Team Leader. I could envision the future development potential of compact neutron systems, and set goals for their development. Dr. Yamagata had his own lab team as well as a support team, so he essentially ran two labs, and I was to work on neutrons. I guess you could call it an assignment. It was in that capacity that I became a team leader.

The joy of being a PI

Adachi: Were there things you were able to do simply because you became Team Leader?

Otake: There were quite a few, actually. I probably couldn’t have achieved anything with this project if I hadn’t been the team leader. This was particularly the case with RANS. Of course, anyone can do imaging using RIKEN’s compact neutron system. However, our team performed neutron diffraction experiments, which involve neutron scattering, and demonstrated that we could consistently achieve the same level of accuracy as larger facilities. We also developed completely new measurement technology for infrastructure that is capable of non-destructively measuring the inside of concrete structures by observing fast neutrons. Neither of these would have been possible if I hadn’t been both team leader and researcher. The work we were doing was in response to a demand in society. There was an actual demand for it in society. In addition, the various measurement technologies we are developing here, our collaboration with external parties, and our joint research all became possible because I was the team leader. If I hadn't been the team leader, we probably couldn’t have invited people to participate in various activities. The same applies to connections with various people; had I not been the PI, I probably could not have participated in such in-depth discussions with them. Securing research funding as a PI is also a big deal, of course. That too is gratifying but at the same time it is always a challenge. It can be quite tough.

Adachi: What did you find most rewarding as a team leader, as a PI?

Otake: As a PI, I really had many very rewarding moments but on a number of occasions in particular, I felt incredibly happy. I felt extremely happy when young people in our lab won awards or were recognized at academic conferences, or especially when they received recognition based on development that we had worked so hard on for a long time, such as RANS-II and RANS-III. I was incredibly happy then. Seeing people grow as scientists and be recognized for taking on new challenges was also rewarding. I think that having members of our team recognized externally probably made me happier than anything else.

Challenges as a PI

Adachi: Conversely, what was the hardest part about being a PI?

Otake: The hardest part? Well...I generally tend to forget about things that are hard. What I do remember are things that are currently hard, things that were hard a short while ago, or things that remained hard for a protracted period. Actually, having relatively young researchers or mid-career researchers recognized, as I mentioned earlier, or succeed in getting a paper published as the first author on an individual topic after not being able to publish a paper for many years make me feel extremely happy, and when they do happen, I tend to forget all other hardships in research and development. Thanks to everyone’s perseverance, our compact neutron systems are operating more and more steadily in the world, which we are grateful for. On the other hand, we will see more and more other compact sources appear around the world, so I think we have only a few years left as the leader in the field, but we have maintained our run as the world leader for some time now. As a compact neutron source, it has achieved remarkable results. Having had the opportunity to lead projects like this, I get invited to many events and places, asked to serve on various committees, give talks here and there, and receive requests to act as an advisor to organizations wanting to construct similar compact neutron sources at particular locations in the world. As a result, I get busier and busier and, consequently, have less and less time to spend in the lab itself. Although I have less time, we developed a reasonable framework within our lab where team members have their own respective roles and, to some extent, can work even more freely in my absence. In this way, I felt the lab could operate smoothly. However, the COVID-19 pandemic altered that arrangement considerably. While we are now getting back to normal post COVID, we are in a clearly different phase from where we were before, and figuring out how to manage the lab, how to nurture people is quite difficult at present. Of course, the ordinary 10 to 20 difficulties that arise in the course of a day – such as securing budgets, launching projects, and deciding on how to work with external parties – are difficulties that never go away, so I always feel exhausted. I really want researchers here to feel personally invested in their work and to continue their research on a trajectory that doesn't end with simply publishing some paper but that leads to the next step, where they receive some kind of feedback and are able to find value in what they have done and to continue their progress. This is what I would like for our researchers. However, it's not easy to keep everything moving. Yes, this is hard.

Adachi: The impact of COVID is steadily diminishing and everyone is now able to cope with various situations but what are some of the things you still find challenging?

Otake: Are you referring to arrangements in our lab since COVID?

Adachi: Yes.

Otake: One thing that has become quite clear is that international conferences can now be held online, so people who were not particularly comfortable going out are now attending and holding international conferences and meetings online at their own premises. It’s certainly convenient but it does raise the question as to whether they are missing out on the benefits that can be obtained through face-to-face meetings. I suppose it's a matter of finding a balance, and since COVID, the number of conferences and meetings of all sorts has definitely increased. Because it’s a lot easier to hold meetings online. And because of this, things have become incredibly busy. On the other hand, due to the onset of COVID, for more than three years people were deprived of the exchange of information that could only be communicated face-to-face, information that required going to a particular site and observing the setup, or the kind of stimulation that people can get only by being in contact with the outside world. I feel that just staying within the confines of RIKEN is not enough. The outside world is moving at the speed of the outside world, but even if I make a suggestion such as, "Let's go out and interact with the outside world for a change,” the team members are all adults in their own right, after all. That makes it really hard. When I receive inquiries of various kinds from chairs of international conferences, I introduce our young people or our researchers as much as possible, but there are limits to what I personally can do. So I feel the situation at present is a little difficult. Without a doubt, online conferences are convenient, but I still want people to get out and experience things firsthand.

Leap forward as a researcher

Adachi: Looking back on your own career as a researcher, what do you see as the most notable turning point, the moment when you felt your career took off?

Otake: Well, I would say it was when I started working on compact neutron sources.

Adachi: So, that was when you became Team Leader?

Otake: Just before that, when I became Deputy Team Leader. Up until that point, I was doing research that leaned more towards physics. When I was considering moving to RIKEN or looking for a research position, I was also thinking about my age. Although I had always thought that when I reached my late 40s or 50s, I wanted to do something that would benefit society, I learned of this compact neutron system project, or rather, I felt that I could realize my aspirations through a pursuit of this nature. I believe it was pure luck. I can’t describe it in any other way. I wasn’t the one who conceived of the project and started it from scratch. The need for it already existed. But given that bringing a project like this to fruition would require a huge amount of effort and cooperation from a large number of people, I stepped back from almost all of the research in fundamental physics I had been doing up until then. In 2012 or 2013, I then stopped all of the research in nuclear and particle physics that I had been doing up until that point. I felt that all I needed to do was to live to see this project through, and live as long as I could work as a PI. By 2011 to 2013, I wanted to make this compact neutron system No. 1 in the world. I approached it with that level of determination. So, being given the chance to do this was truly an incredibly huge opportunity.

Adachi: That would have meant stepping away from the world of fundamental physics. Was there any hesitation at the time?

Otake: No, there was no hesitation whatsoever. I didn’t hesitate because in fundamental physics, while there are research areas where you can make rapid progress, there are other areas where progress is slow, and even after 10 or 20 years some research projects reach an impasse without making any significant breakthroughs. I thought that I would start by working on fundamental physics and see how far I got in 10 years, and that I could definitely go back to my work if I happened to have the chance. I just thought that if I were in a situation where I could find something new, I would be able to do that. At the time, however, I thought I had done enough fundamental physics, and that the field was best left to those who specialize in it. Moreover, my own assessment of myself was that even though I had worked quite hard on fundamental physics, I hadn’t really achieved any notable results. Of course, I published papers and did a fair amount of research, but I didn't hesitate at all in stepping away from it, in the sense that I now wanted to concentrate on something big and new.

Taking part in the launch of the Large-Scale Synchrotron Radiation Facility (SPring-8)

Adachi: Looking back at your career as a researcher, is there anything you wish you had done differently at the time, or any failure that still lingers in your mind?

Otake: Well, maybe I just have a poor memory but I have no particular regrets as far as doing things a certain way. I sometimes do wonder why I wasn't more useful in the synchrotron radiation group when I first joined RIKEN. I now know what I could have done, of course. Although I should have done things differently, it may not have been possible for me to realize that at the time, when I was 35, 36 or 37, so I like to think I did my best under the circumstances even then. In terms of being a PI, participating in the launch of the massive SPring-8 project in Harima was a truly exceptional experience. Among the people at RIKEN at the time were Dr. Tatsuo Ueki, the leading person in structural biology, and Dr. Ishikawa. There were also various other people overseeing the development of apparatus as well as people who were conducting research in various areas. As I mentioned earlier, although there was quite a large number of people, we all worked very closely together since it was the initial launch. As you can imagine, there are all types of PIs. Being able to both observe them and work together with everyone day after day at Harima was an incredibly valuable experience for me. At no point did we work in isolation. We all had to work together. As we were to make the first 10 beamlines available for user access by a particular date, we worked frantically to meet that deadline. Once the beamlines were in operation, we were all keen to learn and share information on their use, asking, "Which beamlines are being used? What results are they producing?" and "Who are the users?" We researchers also worked late night shifts and overnight shifts operating the accelerator. That’s how I was involved. Although I didn't fully understand its significance at the time, experiencing the launch period of such a major facility was truly extraordinary for me. With so many people and approaches at work, we were able to pull it off together.

Adachi: So, in total, there were more than 100 people working around the clock on campus day and night?

Otake: That’s right. Everyone was working in sync. Moreover, at the very beginning, we were a joint team of people from RIKEN and from JAERI, so there were also people from different cultures working together. I learned an enormous amount from that experience. Even after more than 10 or 20 years, I still cherish the conversations I had with so many different people and observing the approaches they took at the time.

Adachi: So, did you feel that, as a group, the people ranged from those specializing in basic physics to those focusing more on engineering?

Otake: There were hardly any people from fundamental physics, and everyone was focused on synchrotron radiation. The accelerator people took charge of the accelerator, and we were involved in the beam use side, so the people we had the most contact with were people involved in synchrotron radiation and apparatus. There were actually more people involved in apparatus. However, since it was a new project and new construction, there were people from a wide range of fields, such as physical properties and materials, and from various other backgrounds. Of course, there were also researchers building systems as well as people whose forte was in computers. It was such a diverse range of people and for the first six months or so I was trying to work out what our common language would be. After saying hello to someone, I wondered what I should say next to get a conversation going. Nowadays, we also have a lot of nerdy intellectuals in the mix as well. I had to think about what approach to take in various situations, so from various perspectives, it was quite a good learning experience for me. I think it's much better for people to work in a wide range of situations rather than have their perspectives limited by a narrow, limited field. Unlike an academic conference, we got to spend a significant amount of time together – well I wouldn’t say as much as 365 days a year but still quite a lot. It was a truly memorable experience.

Adachi: You just mentioned the diversity of fields of the people you were working with, but were the majority of the project members Japanese men?

Otake: Yes, they were. But the person I talked to most often in Dr. Ishikawa's lab was a Japanese-Brazilian female researcher, and we spoke English most of the time. There was also an American researcher who had worked at the European Synchrotron Radiation Facility (ESRF). For sure, Japanese comprised the majority of people in the lab, but there were only about 10 of us in total, including technical staff. The Brazilian researcher and I were the only women. There was also the American researcher, so in that sense there was perhaps a rather good gender balance and spread of nationalities.

Adachi: Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Background to choosing a career as a researcher

Matsuo: I would also like to ask you a few questions. At the beginning of today’s interview, you said that you wanted to be a researcher for the rest of your life. Could you please talk about your motivation or early experiences that might have influenced your decision when you completed your degree?

Otake:: Ever since I was a child, I didn’t know what I wanted to be. Adults often ask children what they want to be without really thinking about it. I hated that question because I just couldn’t answer it. When I started high school, I realized I liked science and math subjects. I also liked English as a foreign language, and I had been playing music all along, so I liked music too. While I liked both of these, I felt they were subjects I couldn’t really make a career out of. I didn’t necessarily think I could do anything with science and math either, and maybe I would never be good at these subjects, but I liked them just the same. When I started high school and realized that the field I liked was physics, I decided that I wanted to continue studying physics for the rest of my life, although I am not sure why I decided this at the time. Rather than any particular reason, I think I felt my way of reasoning aligned with reasoning in physics, so it just made sense to me that I would continue to pursue physics forever. So the question for me was what I would have to do to continue pursuing physics, and becoming a researcher was the only way. The first hurdle for me was university. I was in high school then, so this meant getting into university. After that, I had to get into graduate school, and then I had to get my doctoral degree. My strategy was to take one step at a time.

Development as a PI

Matsuo: As I listen to you, I get the sense that you are quick at changing gears and that you take a practical approach to everything. Now that you've been a PI for some time, do you recall any changes you made along the way, or ways in which you evolved as a PI?

Otake: Do you mean how I have personally made changes?

Matsuo: Yes, as a PI.

Otake: When I first started out, I was extremely narrow-minded, and maybe I am still. When I set my mind on doing something, I tended to assume that everyone else would work with the same resolve. But I found that is not the way things work. While some people like rice, others prefer bread. Some people want to sit down, while others want to take off running. In my early days as a PI, I had to launch a compact neutron system project, secure a budget, and produce results. As I set out to do something new, I found some people wanted to do other things. Others were confrontational. There were many different kinds of people around me, and many of them were very strong-willed. I constantly felt that people were arguing with me, or that I was always being blamed for something. So, I really felt that my hands were tied. Even now I probably walk a fine line and have little space to maneuver. At any rate, it took me a very long time to understand in my own way that the pace and methods of the lab members were very different from my own. I couldn't help wondering why they didn’t do things in the way I saw them. That sums up the way I felt for the first two years or so. When I first started my lab in 2013, I was doing joint research with people from a steel company and was very fortunate to be able to obtain positive results relatively early on. We also put out a press release and published paper, so I felt very fortunate about our progress. At that time, I had the good fortune to have the assistance of postdocs who worked incredibly hard, and also people from the company who provided us with excellent samples. Therefore, we were able to produce one rather significant result, which I thought would allow us to take a breather or at least make us feel that we could get through this. From there, I began thinking about how we should develop this before moving on to the next phase of RANS-II. I also had to consider what we had to do to make this happen. So, I personally did not have any time before RANS-II took shape. If our goal was to create just one compact neutron system, anybody could easily do it. Well, saying anyone could easily do it, may be a bit of a misleading. But to move towards our ultimate goal, we had to come up with a scenario where we could achieve our goal by constructing a second unit, then a third unit, and visualizing how they would perform. While consulting with a large number of people, I created that scenario, and we then implemented it as we went along. I'm not the kind of person who starts out by making a detailed plan and then moves ahead with it. Rather than having a clearly defined construct at the outset, I can work out the details on the run once I have a certain goal. I didn't have any time when I first started doing things on the run, so I improvised as I went along. After working on something a little, I can step back and assess the situation, "Ah, maybe this is how it should be." In that way, I feel as if I learn all kinds of things as I go along. I really learned an incredible amount from being put in the position of a PI. I have also come to understand that as individuals we all have our own pace, and I feel the breadth of my judgment has expanded over time in terms of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable to maintain the lab.

Matsuo: As a PI, have there been times when you experienced the joy of bringing together a group of people with widely disparate views and producing great results?

Otake: Yes, there have. The very first press release I mentioned just a moment ago was one such occasion. It’s been two years since then, but we now try to put out a press release at least once a year, if possible. What I mean by putting out a press release is, as I explained earlier, when a lead researcher publishes a paper and it is of noteworthy value, I suggest that we prepare a press release. If all goes well and it attracts a certain amount of attention, and is picked up by various newspapers including industry newspapers and various other media, with the researcher's name appearing, I feel a tremendous sense of relief.

On being in a male-dominated field

Matsuo: I think your field is one where you don’t find many women. How do you see the situation? Do you think there is a particular problem, or do you have any thoughts on what could be done to address the situation?

Otake: Well, what can I say? I haven’t mentioned this until now, but just before joining SPring-8 at RIKEN, I had actually won an award from the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation, a research institute in Germany, and I was also considering going there because expenses for my stay in Germany would be covered. I wanted to go to Germany or elsewhere in Europe because I was not the kind of person who could be content spending my whole life in Japan’s male-dominated society. When I was about 33 years old, I thought that those older men would never understand me even in a hundred years. And now, 30 years later, if you asked whether those men understand me, well I would say that there are more men who understand the language I speak than there were 30 years ago. On the other hand, I think it's a bit difficult to say how well they understand, and I think there are still steps we need to take. One recent incident in particular that made me feel that men in general have really changed was my receiving an academic award from the Japanese Society for Neutron Science last year. I truly never thought that I would be considered for such an award but I was recommended by colleagues, all of whom were men. I never thought I would live to see that day, truly. Though I refer to them as old men, the people who recommended me were actually younger than myself, though by only a few years. There were also other people older than I who also gave a recommendation. That almost never happened before. I come from an era where being treated as if I didn’t exist was normal, and it was truly rare to be acknowledged as someone who is there. Being treated as if I weren't there used to be the norm, but now they were telling me not only “You’re here,” but also “It's okay for you to be here.” In a sense, I felt that being able to become a PI was like telling me “It's okay for you to be here.” But receiving the academic award, or even just being recommended for it, made me think, “Wow, the world has changed!” Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like had I gone to Europe at that time. I like German bread so when I feel like having some bread, I think it would have been nice to have gone there. But as far as my research goes, I'm really happy that I remained in Japan.

Matsuo: Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Career as a teacher

Adachi: I've heard that you were good at teaching students at the technical college, and that at RIKEN too you put a lot of effort into nurturing young scientists. Did you ever think about becoming a teacher at university?

Otake: I did give it some thought when I was teaching at the technical college. But as I said earlier, I have a tendency to be narrow-minded. I still do teach students, and even now I give intensive lectures at the Research and Education Center for Atomic Sciences (RECAS) at Ibaraki University once a year for two days from morning to night, and I teach a class every year for international graduate students at the University of Tokyo. That's about the extent of my teaching. When you teach students, you have a responsibility to nurture their development, don't you? I think I was able to do that until I was in my 40s, up until my 50s. But it's a bit difficult now. I can teach my area of specialization. And I can teach it in a way that others will understand. But to have students properly learn and understand the content as students, or for them to be able to gain a sound understanding of it, I would have to do considerable preparation and planning so that they can learn on their own. I believe that is more than I can handle at this stage. That is why I really admire professors who teach at universities, and people who teach others. I cannot do things like that half-heartedly. I suppose I shouldn't decide that I can't do it. But, for now, I feel it’s better for me to work hard on compact neutron systems together with the researchers here.

To young people aspiring to become PIs

Adachi: Finally, do you have any advice to give to young researchers who aspire to become PIs?

Otake: Sure. If there is some area of research you would like to pursue or something you want to achieve through research, becoming a PI may not be the shortest route but it’s one sure way to reach your goal. If you find yourself thinking about how much effort you will have to put into getting there and weighing up the positives and negatives of that journey, you should focus on the positives you perceive and use them as a propellant to move you forward. No matter where we are or how we live, we will always have to contend with negatives. And the way to deal with negatives is the same no matter where we live, so there's no point in dwelling on them. With positives, on the other hand, I feel it’s all about using them to build on our own strength, as well as enlisting the strength of those around us, to achieve what we set out to do. Thirty years ago, I was convinced that the “old men” here would never change in a hundred years, but here I am 30 years later and they have in fact changed. Japanese men may be very slow to change, but they do actually change, so take heart and follow your aspirations.

Adachi: Thank you for your time today.

Matsuo: Thank you very much.

This interview took place on September 19, 2023, in Wako, Japan, at the Neutron Application Facilities Building 2F Room N205.

RIKEN Elsevier Foundation Partnership Project
Camera and editor: Tomoko Nishiyama (Center for Brain Science)
Aiko Onoda (Center for Brain Science)
Assistant camera: Masataka Sasabe (Communications Division)
Interviewer and assistant: Hiroko Matsuo (Diversity Promotion Section)
Interviewer and producer: Emiko Adachi (Diversity Promotion Section)

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